Topic: OH&S Guidance required
4 Posts
Tue, 7th August 2012, 8:21am
Hi All,
I have been elected as the shed’s OH&S head and I require guidance.
Needing your views on your sheds implementation and adherence on..
What training process is carried out before a member can use a piece of equipment?
Who are the trainers and what if any formal qualification are required by the trainer/s and assessors.
Is there any sheds that use induction literature for new members, anyone have a copy of the same?
We are hoping to implement a user friendly but firm policy for our members, who number about 50.
I welcome any assistance that you can offer.
Regards.
Alan
Reply:
868 Posts
Tue, 7th August 2012, 8:52am
SouthCoast writes
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Hi All,
I have been elected as the shed’s OH&S head and I require guidance.
Needing your views on your sheds implementation and adherence on..
What training process is carried out before a member can use a piece of equipment?
Who are the trainers and what if any formal qualification are required by the trainer/s and assessors.
Is there any sheds that use induction literature for new members, anyone have a copy of the same?
We are hoping to implement a user friendly but firm policy for our members, who number about 50.
I welcome any assistance that you can offer.
Regards.
Alan
Congratz on your appointment.
It is now ass covering time for you, you need to put a bit of paperwork in place which records what you have done and limits your responsibility.
I think it is best to do a tick and flick sheet to be carried out at regular intervals for things like guards and clear walkways and electrical checks etc. Do not DANGER operate tags should have a sign on and off procedure. And an incident log book should be available to whoever is in the shed.
Training people to use machinery is a real prob. You have to find a balance between telling them everything and telling them nothing. If you opt for telling them everything and they find a new way of hurting themselves you could be liable.
see next post
Reply:
868 Posts
Tue, 7th August 2012, 8:52am - updated - Tue, 7th August 2012, 10:58am
Probably the best way to go is a proforma statutory declaration that anyone can sign that says they have had formal training or used similar machines in the work place and they know where to find emergency stops and safety manuals eye wash stations and emergency exits and they have no health issues that puts themsselves or others at extraordinary risk while they use the machine. And they have the access to any personal safety equipment they need.
It would also be wise to have no entry without at least closed footwear and safety glasses or just glasses. Loose long hair loose clothing and ties have no place around moving machinery. And of course horse-play and practical jokes.
As for training old dogs to do new tricks with machinery. If the manufacturer's safety literature is available then that will be sufficient but I think these days you should seek legal advice before offering training that includes machinery safety issues. Maybe it would be best to offer this training via TAFE (or private) training.
A flammable store outside the main building is a good idea and fire drill and assembly area.
The single most important thing to protect your ass is a diary.
Events should be logged as: what happened, what preventative action was taken at the time and what has been done to stop it happening again.
I hope this helps.
Cheers Col
Reply:
13 Posts
Tue, 7th August 2012, 9:20am
Gday Southcoast,
Have you had a look at the Aus Men's Shed Association manual?
In the 'Run a Shed' section they have some info and guidance on OH&S and insurance.
You can download it here: http://www.mensshed.org/shed-manual/.aspx?pageID=26063
Cheers,
Hugh
Hugh Miller
The Shed Online Marketing Advisor
Reply:
66 Posts
Tue, 7th August 2012, 10:33am
What a minefield that would be. As a Liabiltiy Consultant I can only sympathise with your task!
All the advise already given is valid and correct. I can only add other than the obvious safety procedures that you are undoubtedly following, make sure there are documents and notes and people are signed off as having being instructed or warned or whatever it is.
By the time these issues get to me the claimant/plaintiff invariably does not recall being instructed or warned and unless you have a rock solid paper trail of procedures, instructions, signatures and diary notes you are sunk.
Keep trying, and every day is a little better.
Chris.
Reply:
868 Posts
Tue, 7th August 2012, 10:53am
sherlock writes
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What a minefield that would be. As a Liabiltiy Consultant I can only sympathise with your task!
All the advise already given is valid and correct. I can only add other than the obvious safety procedures that you are undoubtedly following, make sure there are documents and notes and people are signed off as having being instructed or warned or whatever it is.
By the time these issues get to me the claimant/plaintiff invariably does not recall being instructed or warned and unless you have a rock solid paper trail of procedures, instructions, signatures and diary notes you are sunk.
Thanks for the backup mate, I have written a few SOPs etc and environmental managements sytems ISO1401 and QA ISO9000 (I think) and done a lot of incident interviews and was a prosecutor in the courts on one occasion.
Safety is of course everyones responsibility but as you said the paper trail is the way to go.
Warned sounds good do you have any more to offer on that.
Cheers Col
Reply:
57 Posts
Tue, 7th August 2012, 2:04pm - updated - Mon, 13th August 2012, 8:05am
Training can be undertaken by any person who can demonstrate the requisite skill - e.g. you wouldn't train an old chippie on how to use a hammer - but someone like a tech qualified welder (or someone who has years of proficiency) could train your chippie in how to safely use a welder. - Convert that to any machinery. We have retired builders who have a trade's lifetime of operating power tools, a plumber/sheet metal worker who is well recognised for his metalwork skills - these are "suitable trainers". Make sure you have the operating and manufacturers manuals for all machinery (If not, you can download a lot of that from the manufacturers website quite often) and in your Standard Operating Procedures you refer to that as well. <Quote> "Probably the best way to go is a pro-forma statutory declaration that anyone can sign that says they have had formal training or used similar machines in the work place and they know where to find emergency stops and safety manuals eye wash stations and emergency exits and they have no health issues that puts themselves or others at extraordinary risk while they use the machine. And they have the access to any personal safety equipment they need.<end quote/> is not worth the paper it is written on if you don't have some form of "procedure" for signing off that they have "been shown" and "Assessed as competent" backed up by an "assessment tool" (like the 'tick-&-flick' sheets previously mentioned. You can support all of this with a "practical demonstration" of competency - i.e. actually using the machine - e.g. we have a 4 stroke "Roto-tiller" for the garden and a "Ride-on Mower" for the grassed areas and people who want to use this must go through a practical assessment and demonstrastion of competency.
Reply:
66 Posts
Tue, 7th August 2012, 2:46pm
artwombat writes
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sherlock writes
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What a minefield that would be. As a Liabiltiy Consultant I can only sympathise with your task!
All the advise already given is valid and correct. I can only add other than the obvious safety procedures that you are undoubtedly following, make sure there are documents and notes and people are signed off as having being instructed or warned or whatever it is.
By the time these issues get to me the claimant/plaintiff invariably does not recall being instructed or warned and unless you have a rock solid paper trail of procedures, instructions, signatures and diary notes you are sunk.
Thanks for the backup mate, I have written a few SOPs etc and environmental managements sytems ISO1401 and QA ISO9000 (I think) and done a lot of incident interviews and was a prosecutor in the courts on one occasion.
Safety is of course everyones responsibility but as you said the paper trail is the way to go.
Warned sounds good do you have any more to offer on that.
Cheers Col
Not sure what you mean by that but can only add that from experience of companies or employers or even just a householder that has tried to do the right thing and told somebody about something, unless it is written down or witnessed, it never happened.
I am involved in anything from workplace fatalities or road fatalities to a cleaning lady that tripped on the stairs and all in between. Make notes, make records, get signatures, get countersignatures, make diary notes.
There is no point telling me in a statement that you told somebody six times to wear a safety hair net, unless you wrote it in the file or notes or your diary you are going to look stupid. Some guy sits up in court with bandages all over him and wits who state how hard he tried for your incompetent organisation and you are trying to say "I told you so" but I never bothered to write any notes.... well... get the cheque book out.
Keep trying, and every day is a little better.
Chris.
Reply:
66 Posts
Tue, 7th August 2012, 2:49pm
Ran out of space....
On the other side of the coin, when the claimant or plaintiff states that he was never told or trained and nobody ever mentioned a hair net, and the employer or secretary pulls out a signed induction document, training notes and three diary entries where this guy was warned and who knows what else, well, then, it is almost all over already.
Moral - it is not what happened that counts, it is what you wrote down.
Keep trying, and every day is a little better.
Chris.
Reply:
868 Posts
Tue, 7th August 2012, 5:57pm
A warning could be, "It is dangerous to leave the chuck key in the chuck, because if the machine is started it will fly across the room and could injure someone."
But if someone trained someone and failed to tell them about leaving the key in the chuck and someone was injured what happens to the trainers liability.
That is why I think some legal advice would be good before we simply appoint trainers who are experienced.
Or if you want to put it another way, is crap training worse than no training.
Reply:
66 Posts
Sun, 12th August 2012, 12:55pm
Once again you are wrong. Nothing is worse than no training. At least with crap training you made some intent. With training you need to do it properly and then document it all, and reinforce it regularly. Then you must supervise that it is being followed and offer updates.
Simply warning somebody does very little to alleviate any liability. I see it all the time, people put a sign up or something and think they are covered. I see them fined for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Hanging a sign or doing nothing is never any defence.
Please make sure you get professional advice and not the ill informed type offered here. I have no problem with people who don't know the subject, not everybody can know everything and liability is a complex issue.
Remember a wise man will refrain from giving advice or opinion on something he knows nothing about, and a wiser man will know not to listen.
Keep trying, and every day is a little better.
Chris.
Reply:
868 Posts
Sun, 12th August 2012, 3:03pm
sherlock writes
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Once again you are wrong. Nothing is worse than no training. At least with crap training you made some intent. With training you need to do it properly and then document it all, and reinforce it regularly. Then you must supervise that it is being followed and offer updates.
Simply warning somebody does very little to alleviate any liability. I see it all the time, people put a sign up or something and think they are covered. I see them fined for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Hanging a sign or doing nothing is never any defence.
Please make sure you get professional advice and not the ill informed type offered here. I have no problem with people who don't know the subject, not everybody can know everything and liability is a complex issue.
Remember a wise man will refrain from giving advice or opinion on something he knows nothing about, and a wiser man will know not to listen.
The way I see it a shed is not a training organisation for safe operation of anything and if a shed does offer training on the safe operation of machinery then they need to make sure they are specifically covered by insurance to conduct such training.
If someone offers a stat dec that they are experienced in the safe use of ........ machinery then that can be filed in good faith.
TAFE Queensland offers "train the trainer courses" but they would still need appropriate insurance to train people as do any other profession for example Doctors and Engineers etc.
Nothing is simple anymore: this morning I bought a 2 burner BBQ and had to pick it up at the back of K Mart I had to park my car wthin a yellow lined bay, the kid had to use a lift to get it down from the dock and then he had to put on a fluro vest and then he had to wheel it on a trolly to my car and then we both lifted it into the back of my Pulsar hatch.
Reply:
66 Posts
Sun, 12th August 2012, 3:11pm
If that i the way you see it then fine, that is OK.
However, you are wrong.
Keep trying, and every day is a little better.
Chris.
Reply:
868 Posts
Sun, 12th August 2012, 3:33pm
A mate of mine is a retired surgeon and a motorcycle rider and he is adament that he could do anything that could be done as first aid before you even got your first aid kit out. There is no time to muck around he says, use whatever is at hand to plug bleeding etc.
He says that training is good but first aid kits are a total waste. And he was also did his stint in the army as a field medical officer. I believe him. I have seen him in an emegergency situation where a rider in front of me failed to take a bend the bike slid on gravel and flipped. The bike was a 6 cylinder Kawasaki and extremely heavy the rider was a first aid/firey who works at the airport and behind me was the surgeon.
So all I had to do was help lift the bike off him and watch and load the bike unto a trailer and follow it home to help unload it. The hurt rider was told to lay still and not move for quite a while but then refused an ambulance as recomended by the surgeon and went home with the trailer, next day he was in a bad way and his wife called the ambos and he spent a week or so in hospital.
I have forgotten the exact details of the injuries.
There are lessons to be learned from this event but I guess you had to be there. None of us are imune to shock. No amount of training can really prepare us for a real situation.
Reply:
66 Posts
Sun, 12th August 2012, 3:51pm - updated - Sun, 12th August 2012, 3:52pm
So your brilliant surgeon had xray vision as well as being infallible. An excellent friend to not have around in case of an accident.
Imagine recommending to refuse an ambulance, what awesome insurance he must have!
Not sure of your point, the topic was about OH&S for which you need professional guidance.
Keep trying, and every day is a little better.
Chris.
Reply:
491 Posts
Sun, 12th August 2012, 7:35pm
Hello, Southcoast.
I'm a bit surprised that you have been given the role without any sort of training in health and safety. At the very least, you should have a safety induction card or certificate. I would suggest you contact the government WHS office in your state, or the Master Builders Assn. to arange an induction course. It will give you the groundwork to start managing safety in your Shed.
Ken
Note to Artwombat. Could you give me the name of that surgeon, so I can make sure I avoid him in the event I need medical assistance? With his kind of advise, I would be better off with an Amazonian witchdoctor.
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57 Posts
Mon, 13th August 2012, 8:03am
You blokes are turning the 'home/garage activities' of a bunch of fellows into an industry - OHS white tickets, trained safety officers, insurance issues, etc. Strike me pink its a 'Men's "SHED" not a bloody factory! What are you lot? A bunch of frustrated bureaucrats in retirement who want to tie the sheds up in red tape? All that is required are manuals for equipment (the same equipment many have in their backyard sheds), someone who knows how to operate it to show potential users how its safely operated and a little bit of 'vigilence' on the part of the Men's Shed committee to stop any observed/reported unsafe use.
Reply:
868 Posts
Mon, 13th August 2012, 10:35am - updated - Mon, 13th August 2012, 10:36am
Jack Smith writes
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You blokes are turning the 'home/garage activities' of a bunch of fellows into an industry - OHS white tickets, trained safety officers, insurance issues, etc. Strike me pink its a 'Men's "SHED" not a bloody factory! What are you lot? A bunch of frustrated bureaucrats in retirement who want to tie the sheds up in red tape? All that is required are manuals for equipment (the same equipment many have in their backyard sheds), someone who knows how to operate it to show potential users how its safely operated and a little bit of 'vigilence' on the part of the Men's Shed committee to stop any observed/reported unsafe use.
Hello Jack, sad is it not.
But if you want govt fundiung then you have to play by the corporate rules.
The trick is to play by the rules and keep it simple but when you have a camel (the horse designed by a committee) it is more difficult to keep it simple.
A Claytons Club tho (Claytons was the drink you have when you are not having a drink) can just run on common sense and hope for the best.
Cheers Col
Reply:
57 Posts
Mon, 13th August 2012, 10:57am
Its all a question of 'seriousness of risk exposure' and I would rate the local men's shed as far lower risk (if common sense, use of manuals, induction to equipment and supervision is used) as compared to a large construction site with 80 to 100 tradesmen using all sorts of gear under all sorts of environments. Everyday I read of workplace deaths and serious injuries at construction sites (don't ask me to cite examples, I'm too tired to do your googling for you!) but rarely do you hear of a men's shed having a serious injury and I've never heard of a death at a men's shed from using a mental bender or a powersaw, etc! Having said that, all men's sheds should have an approved first aid kit, trained first aiders, annual inspection of electrical equipment (and any pressure equipment that may be used), possess the manuals for all their equipment and have a paper system that records who has been approved to use any powered equipment.
Reply:
868 Posts
Mon, 13th August 2012, 11:20am
artwombat writes
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Jack Smith writes
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You blokes are turning the 'home/garage activities' of a bunch of fellows into an industry - OHS white tickets, trained safety officers, insurance issues, etc. Strike me pink its a 'Men's "SHED" not a bloody factory! What are you lot? A bunch of frustrated bureaucrats in retirement who want to tie the sheds up in red tape? All that is required are manuals for equipment (the same equipment many have in their backyard sheds), someone who knows how to operate it to show potential users how its safely operated and a little bit of 'vigilence' on the part of the Men's Shed committee to stop any observed/reported unsafe use.
Hello Jack, sad is it not.
But if you want govt funding then you have to play by the corporate rules.
The trick is to play by the rules and keep it simple but when you have a camel (the horse designed by a committee) it is more difficult to keep it simple.
A Claytons Club tho (Claytons was the drink you have when you are not having a drink) can just run on common sense and hope for the best.
Cheers Col
Reply:
491 Posts
Mon, 13th August 2012, 2:08pm
Hello, Jack.
It may seem over the top, but a Men's Shed is a public facility. Such being the case, it requires Public Liability insurance to be allowed to operate. All public facilities require this, now, because of the litigious nature that abounds these days. With this comes the requirements by insurance companies and government agencies, for the insured to show they have taken all reasonable precautions to avoid an insurable event. Sadly we live in the times when every tiny aspect of life has to be made as idiot-proof as possible.
Ken
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